re: Marketplace Error on what can be download

I listen to quite a bit of Electronic music. It's a bit disappointing to see how much stuff is not available for download. But then I come across this glitch/error and it makes me think exactly how much of the stuff that is not available for download, CAN be downloaded.

For example, go to the artist page for Gabriel & Dresden. Show all albums, not just available. You'll notice the album Bloom from 2004 is not available for download.

Ok, now go to the artist page for Andain. What what do we have here, we are given the option to download the Bloom album entirely. The only difference between the two is that one that has the music label on it is downloadable whereas the other is label-less.

So what the heck is going on. Is the electronic genre just being shafted here or what. I'll let my subscription expire this time around if this is how poorly the marketplace is being runned.

 Gurrchan wrote:

For example, go to the artist page for Gabriel & Dresden. Show all albums, not just available. You'll notice the album Bloom from 2004 is not available for download.

Ok, now go to the artist page for Andain. What what do we have here, we are given the option to download the Bloom album entirely.

Bloom is a multi-artist DJ mix. It's available under Gabriel & Dresden in exactly the same place it is for Andain, under the Appears on section, since their songs appear in the mix as well.

The "unavailable" version of Bloom probably came from a different source (the Marketplace gets its data for multiple sources) for which they received slightly different metadata than the other - as in, having it be a Gabriel & Dresden album rather than a Various Artists album. Clearly the official one from Nettwerk is listed as a Various Artists album, so that's the one that's available, and the source representing it as a Gabriel & Dresden album is less official and, therefore, not available.

 Gurrchan wrote:

The only difference between the two is that one that has the music label on it is downloadable whereas the other is label-less.

All music that is not available in the Marketplace has no label listed.

 Gurrchan wrote:

So what the heck is going on. Is the electronic genre just being shafted here or what. I'll let my subscription expire this time around if this is how poorly the marketplace is being runned.

I listen to plenty of electronic music, and I think their selections are fine. If you had just looked in the right place, you would have seen Bloom right where it belonged. No one is getting shafted.

How is it that not going directly to the artist that created the mix, not the right place?

So you want me to search by the artists that are listed in A State of Trance rather than simply searching for Armin Van Buuren who was the DJ who mixed it? How are you justifying this is beyond me. It makes the user work more and limit the exploration of the music. I like AVB, I'll listen to what he mixes. To search ANOTHER artist just to get an album by AVB is redundant.

 Gurrchan wrote:

How is it that not going directly to the artist that created the mix, not the right place?

Ask Nettwerk. They're the label, and they submitted it that way.

Look, I agree with you in principle regarding DJ mixes. They would, in fact, be easier to find if they were listed under the DJ's name, and often times, they are. But your post was accusatory towards the Zune Marketplace ("Is the electronic genre just being shafted here or what" when no such thing is happening), when in fact the issue has to do with the labels.

There are three ways to handle this. The first is that, if you're noticing that this happens all the time with all your favorite DJs, you should post in this forum (it is a wishlist forum after all) that you wish that the Marketplace would consistently list DJ mixes under the DJ's name. The second is that you could ask them to create an additional tab (alongside Year and Appears on) called DJ mixes to keep the mixes separate from the artist's regular albums. (I think that would be a great idea, personally.) The third is that you could go to the content forum and post all of the ones you find as errors.

The point is, give the Zune team something actionable to make the Marketplace better, rather than pointing a finger at them. You attract more flies with honey, etc. etc.

 Gurrchan wrote:

So you want me to search by the artists that are listed in A State of Trance rather than simply searching for Armin Van Buuren who was the DJ who mixed it?

I'm not saying anything about what I want you to do. I agree with you in principle about this. But you're not going to change how the Marketplace works overnight, so if you want to make it work for you, you should adapt the way you look at it for the time being, and make suggestions to the team here so that it gets better in the future.

To use your example, Van Buuren's A State Of Trance 2007 mix is listed under his own name and shows up with the rest of his albums, but the available version of his A State Of Trance 2006 mix is listed as a Various Artists album and shows up in his Appears on section instead. That's Ultra Records' fault, not Zune's. In these cases, searching by album title works wonders. It also works for Bloom (though, in that case, the unavailable one shows up higher in the results list, but the available one is there not too far down).

 Gurrchan wrote:

It makes the user work more and limit the exploration of the music.

Agreed. But by the same token, if you're willing to click on the All tab to see the unavailable albums, why not click on the Appears on tab first and look at other things that are available? Same number of clicks, better results. Especially now that you know that DJ mixes are likely to appear there.

 Gurrchan wrote:

To search ANOTHER artist just to get an album by AVB is redundant.

Arguably, a DJ mix by AVB is not the same thing as "an album by AVB," so the expectation that they'll be in the same result set might reasonably be questioned. That said, I personally think having them in a separate tab would be way cooler than just sprinkling them in with his regular albums, and if I were making the suggestion, that's the one I would make. But if you want them sprinkled in with his regular albums, suggest that instead. The important thing is, make it a general, actionable, "wishlist" sort of post.

The point is, I'm paying for a service. The service, at the end of the day, should be problem free. Your solution works (at times), but I should not have to sidestep to find an album. Let alone, think of how many potential albums could theoretically be downloaded yet because they have not been associated with a Label in the database they're off limits, yet Microsoft most likely has the legal license to distribute that media.

In the case of Bloom, we're able to know it can be downloaded because it has been associated to other artists and lucky me it was tagged correctly elsewhere. What about G&D's self titled studio album. There is no way I can download it nor verify it's downloadable since it's strictly by them. There is no workaround to download it. I'm pretty sure MS would have the rights since they have the rights to offer other Nettwerk titles. So you want me to post every single album that I think might be a legit download but is blocked off. Especially on a forum where the Zune Team members hardly respond to?

If Microsoft wants to just let MusicNet handle all the work and not help, that's a terrible library to offer to your userbase. You can blame Nettwerk or any label, but it is Microsoft who is not tidying up their services. I highly doubt it is Nettwerks fault as much as it is MusicNet, which would be Microsofts responsibility to oversee.

My comment about the Electronic genre being shafted is simple. It's not mainstream. You'll find little to no problems with any mainstream releases. Electronic is so niche in Zune that the generated Channels are terrible. Even the custom weekly staff pick by Ms E is terrible. There is no effort. Grab 4 songs from a single album and bunch it up for a total of 20. Compare it to the richly diverse mixes by the other genres. The albums are not properly tagged (in terms of label), the selection is subpar and hardly any releases (only 23 albums released in 2008? (Trance/ProgressiveTrance genre), even major releases. So if you want to analyze my statement about whether or not Electronic/Dance is being shafted, I'd say it is.

A mix album is a mix album. ASOT, ISOS, Anjunabeats, etc. These mix albums are as important as a self produced studio album. They're mixed by said DJ. I can understand weening out generic's like, Trance Nation 2009, Best of Trance 2009. But ASOT, ISOS,Anjunabeats, etc, are staple yearmixes specially crafted by the DJ for his audience. So yes, it should be listed as it is their work as it is released under their Artist name.

Case in point. If you like Electronica/Trance, etc, Zune is simply not the market for you.

You shouldn't be blaming the Label directly, it should be forwarded to the company presenting the software (Microsoft) as well as the company who's hosting/organizing/contracted to the labels (MusicNet). It's the contractors (MS) job to ensure the people he selects to perform the job (MusicNet) do it right. The materials for the job (labels) are merely material. It's up to the workers to make use of the material. Seems to me MusicNet could careless about an organized database of electronic music.

 Gurrchan wrote:

think of how many potential albums could theoretically be downloaded yet because they have not been associated with a Label in the database they're off limits, yet Microsoft most likely has the legal license to distribute that media.

I think you're looking at it inside out. The issue isn't that they're unavailable because they're disassociated from their label. The issue is that they're unavailable because Microsoft does not have the legal license to distribute that media. The software, recognizing that you are viewing an unavailable album, doesn't include the label information as part of its presentation.

 Gurrchan wrote:

I'm pretty sure MS would have the rights [to G&D's self titled studio album] since they have the rights to offer other Nettwerk titles.

G&D's self-titled studio album isn't on Nettwerk, it's on their own label, Organized Nature.

 Gurrchan wrote:

So you want me to post every single album that I think might be a legit download but is blocked off.

On what basis do you believe that there's a legit download of G&D's debut album from Zune Marketplace that you can't find? Zune doesn't have it. There's a lot of stuff they don't have. iTunes has it, but they don't have Bloom, so there you go. Life is weird sometimes.

 Gurrchan wrote:

If Microsoft wants to just let MusicNet handle all the work and not help, that's a terrible library to offer to your userbase. You can blame Nettwerk or any label, but it is Microsoft who is not tidying up their services.

I think they get their data for available things from the source that makes them available, and most everything else from AMG. (I don't think MusicNet exists anymore, does it?)

I think part of the problem you're seeing (which I alluded to earlier in the thread) is that they since get data from multiple sources, that data doesn't always line up, so you get "unavailable" versions of things that are available. Usually this isn't a problem because they're still by the same artist, so you'd still find the available version by searching for the artist. In the case of Bloom, they got one that said G&D and one that said Various, and since the source of the available music said Various, that's the way they went.

Anyways, there's far too much data in the database for Microsoft to hire people to scrub it. That's what AMG is supposed to do. If there's someone out there that does a better job, you should recommend to Microsoft to partner with them.

 Gurrchan wrote:

My comment about the Electronic genre being shafted is simple. It's not mainstream. You'll find little to no problems with any mainstream releases. Electronic is so niche in Zune that the generated Channels are terrible.

Zune has no control over what's in the generated channels - they're simply the top songs downloaded in that category. Have you looked at the Rock ones? They're just as bad!

 Gurrchan wrote:

Even the custom weekly staff pick by Ms E is terrible. There is no effort. Grab 4 songs from a single album and bunch it up for a total of 20. Compare it to the richly diverse mixes by the other genres.

Fair enough.

 Gurrchan wrote:

The albums are not properly tagged (in terms of label), the selection is subpar and hardly any releases (only 23 albums released in 2008? (Trance/ProgressiveTrance genre), even major releases. So if you want to analyze my statement about whether or not Electronic/Dance is being shafted, I'd say it is.

Subgenres are screwed up across the board, in every genre. (Just ask the folks who like Metal.) I believe that's why iTunes did away with subgenres entirely.

 Gurrchan wrote:

Case in point. If you like Electronica/Trance, etc, Zune is simply not the market for you.

Wait a minute, that list of Armin Van Buuren recordings is a mile long! Tiësto, Paul Van Dyk, they're all here in spades.They have tons of stuff from non-Trance electronic labels (Hyperdub, BPitch Control, Planet Mu, DFA, Kitsune Maison, etc.) as well.

Look, if you want the ideal electronic music marketplace, go to Beatport. I'm not claiming that Zune couldn't do a better job with electronic music, but you're making it sound like they're deliberately ignoring it. Given that one of the most visible Zune team members on the forums (jetherealz) is a huge Trance fan, I don't think it's getting shafted.